Why I'm ignoring a lot of fandom posts...

[surevesta]

This pretty much sums up my thoughts in regard to why I don't comment on both flist and dean_sam community posts. As in, I agree with that post and most of the comments.

I won't deny that I'm a Deangirl BUT I also really do love Sam as well- I'm just more interested in Deans!Storyarcmythos at the moment- mostly because I really just hate Genevieve's version of Ruby and flinch everytime I see her on screen. Most of the times she's on screen is when Sam is without Dean.

What has really come to annoy me are the people out there in fandom saying dean needs to 'getthehelloverhell'. Excuse me... what?

Dean is whinging. Dean is emo. Dean needs to get over it.



Would ya'll tell a POW who was tortured for months to gtf over it after being rescued? Hell, POW's take years to 'get over' things and *never fully do*. I'm talking about the ones that are treated badly... and guess what... they will never be the same person they were before. And those POWs? They tend to have therapists and people they talk to. Sam got Dean to spill his guts but hasn't really tried to help him through it. The only other person Dean has is Castiel... to me it made *sense* that Dean opened up to Cas and not Sam at the end of the last episode because SAM ISN'T HELPING. Dean opens up to Sam and what does he do? Basically tells him to get mad and get over it. He thinks Dean is weak for not being able to handle 40 years of being in a place that is unimaginable.

Side note: I read some things about how Dean's torture scene wasn't very good. Umm? I thought the holy water in veins and the salt in the mouth was pretty good. Both would be painful to both the demon *and* the host. Double the fun. Why was Sam more successful in the end?
a. Dean didn't want to do it in the first place
b. As alistair pointed out to dean- in the real world torture isn't as fun because you *can't cut as deep*... guess what. Sam cut to the demon's very *soul* Dean could only cut the host and do what he could with the magic knife (which we know can't kill Alastair)
c. Sam wanted to save Dean... this is where we see as screwed up as Sam is he actually does want to help Dean and still cares for him. Same thing with CasvsSam scene in the hospital

Do I miss old Dean? Sure, of course I do. That's why I rewatch episodes from time to time. But, I like the progression of the series.

I'm a fan that just joined up in August 08. I rented seasons 1-3 on netflix and pretty much marathoned it. I downloaded season 4 and even watched the first couple episodes before I finished season 3. For the first three seasons (yes even after 'the deal') it was mostly about SAM. Now that Dean's actually part of the central mythos of the show people are upset? I'd think even Sam girls would be happy that Dean isn't just there to protect Sam- that Sam is starting to stand on his own to feet thus FREEING Dean to play a bigger role. Oh wait... if that means less Sam time then nonono- doesn't work for them. Do I complain when an episode spent most of it's time around Sam... or hell when the first and second season REVOLVED around Sam? NO. I enjoyed the damn show like any fan.

I pretty much got the entire show in a series of marathons. I didn't want months or weeks to see new episodes. I liked Sam and Dean pretty much equally. The thing is that I actually sympathized more with Dean in the end.

Why? Because while Sam was able to escape the life that he lived Dean wasn't. Dean *could* have left when he turned 18 but didn't because he was the one that took care of Sam and John. He loved his family more than anything- it was all he had. He was the one that made sure that Sam had everything he wanted. In the end what happened? John and Sam fought and Sam abandoned not only John, but Dean as well. Dean who sacrificed all his wants for Sam. Dean was left with one thing, person, to cling onto: his Dad. Eventually John left too and Dean went to find Sam. Does Sam ever care about what Dean sacrificed? Not really, at least not until season 3. Even then it's more about what Sam wants than Dean.

Sam finally wants his older brother and is realizing what he'll be without. He doesn't even stop to consider methods- the doctor dude in the one episode I hated (not content... I just hate shows that deal with body parts of living people being grafted onto others) was not someone Sam should have even considered where it comes to keeping Dean alive.

Once Dean's gone Sam is conveniently saved by Ruby who he makes an alliance with- and from Sam's own mouth (she said what Dean would have said) sort of replaced Dean. We get that in the most recent episode as well- she called him Sammy without protest from him.

Dean is back and Sam is still acting like he's not. Sure he *knows* that Dean is back, but he's acting as if Dean should be the person he was before he spent 40 years in hell. Of all people Sam should know how supernatural things can change a person permanently- how many people have they saved or fought? Is Sam actually trying to help Dean? I say no. not really.

Hell, Sam doesn't even trust his brother anymore. He doesn't tell him anything. Sam pushed and pushed Dean to open up- even when Sam 'wasn't pushing' he still was- it was hanging between them. So, Dean finally opens up about hell and about torturing other souls... and now what do we see... Sam telling Dean to get angry and get over it. Dean doesn't want to get angry because the torturing he did? He did it through anger. Anger about being tortured.

Dean is breaking and Sam isn't helping him. The Sam who used to practically be a psychologist for the victims the ran into at times isn't really trying to help Dean deal with things in a correct manner. He doesn't seem to want to. He, like a lot of fans, expect Dean to just be the old Dean again.

News flash: ain't gonna happen. Why? Because the characters have grown, changed, and evolved over time. Sam has, Dean has, hell Bobby has. Even Castiel has.

Why isn't it the brother show anymore? Well it ain't because of Dean. Dean keeps trying to reconnect with Sam- practically every episode he asks Sam to stop lying to him... does Sam? No. In fact, while Dean is trying to be a brother Sam really isn't. Sam goes through the motions but this latest episode shows that no, Sam isn't trying to be that brother anymore. Maybe it's not on purpose... but Ruby has replaced Dean in being the person Sam needs- at least in his own mind. That was hammered home for me via Ruby calling Sam 'Sammy'.

All in all- don't tell me Dean needs to 'get over it'. Because I'll take that as you saying a POW needs to get over months of torture. And really? Those months have nothin on 30 years of being tortured in HELL and then 10 years of doing the torture. That isn't something you can come back from easily.



I agree, Sam needs more screen time. Plain and simple he DOES.

Don't lay the blame on Dean, though, blame the writers.

And blame Sam too, he's got a good portion of the blame for NOT being there for Dean... he needs to step up and be the support for Dean for once, be the brother. And not just in a "I'll save you" manner. Be Dean's therapist and actually try to help him for once dammit.

Now I have to leave so that's all.

Comments

[munibunny.livejournal.com]

I agree. I also think that the lack of Sam centered eps this season has a lot to do with Sam being secretive as a whole. In the same way he's hidden his activity from Dean, the writers have hidden it from us. This ep, though, seems to be a turning point. Sam's demon blood addiction has been revealed to us, and soon, it'll be revealed to Dean as well. I think we'll get to know the extent of Sam's descent and, hopefully, Ruby's true objective.

I marathoned S1 last week, just because... And, yeah, I miss the boys the way they were too. Mostly, what I miss is that they used to work together to achieve their goals instead of being at odds with each other all the time.

It's too bad that a good number of people, like Sam, can't deal with Dean's post traumatic stress disorder now. This is serious business. After all this time, he still has to live with not being able to live up to his dad's standard. I do believe that the one thing that can pull him out is having to save Sam.

Seriously, I cannot have short thoughts in response to your brain

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

I just want to smish your brain. Seriously, you put things in just a perfect manner.

Would ya'll tell a POW who was tortured for months to gtf over it after being rescued?

THIS, EXACTLY. Seriously, the whining about Dean's reaction to Hell and needing time to recover (and being shellshocked since no one is giving him that time, not even himself) is just driving me crazy. I love Sam, but I don't see why everyone is complaining about him. I've read comments where people called Dean's snipes at Sam's secret keeping in 4x15 "emotional torture", something they apparently felt he'd picked up in the Pit. WTF. Dean has every right to be pissed off at Sam's words in 4x14 and even moreso that Sam continues to lie to his face. Crying a few (a few!!) times about the entire enormity of the situation he's up against is nothing.

And you're right too about his turning to Castiel, not Sam. Honestly, I don't want Dean to open up to Sam anymore. Not without some serious effort and possibly groveling from Sam, anyway; Sam pestered Dean about Hell, demanded to know what it was like, but on finding out, he did nothing but mutter trite cliches and futhermore went on to throw it all back in Dean's face, declaring him weak. And not weak for breaking, weak for regretting what he did after he broke! That is what gets me about Sam and no matter how much I can rationalize it and see it from his perspective, it doesn't change the absolute sense of horror I feel at how he's treating his brother.

As for the torture scene, I took Dean's implement selection as a sign that he was actually still concerned with the Host. Holy water doesn't hurt them, only the demons, and that was definitely his weapon of choice. Salt will hurt a human, but apparently not as agonizingly as it would a demon. It was only later that he went for the knife and even then Alistair's shirt seemed more wetted with water, not blood. IMHO, Sam was able to do what Dean could not in that scene because Dean was never meant to succeed. The entire thing was a set up by Uriel; Dean could have tortured Alistair for days, weeks, years and it wouldn't have made a difference. Dean's victory there to me was that even at the worst of Alistair's psychological warfare, Dean was able to turn back with his gameface on and keep going. He would have killed Alistair, I'm fairly certain, if only the devil's trap hadn't been broken.

(What really, really kills me with that entire deal is that Sam only saw Dean beat down again, too "weak" to do what was necessary, needing to be saved, and not a single damned thing about how Dean was able to handle it even as it tore him to shreds. Dean was strong in that scene, no matter what Sam thinks he saw.)

Do I complain when an episode spent most of it's time around Sam... or hell when the first and second season REVOLVED around Sam?

Oh, I so totally agree with that. There is only one Sam!centric episode in the entire series that I've got an issue with and that was After School Special. My problems there weren't even with the lack of Dean, but with how both boys were portrayed. I had issues with Sam's actor, not because of how good a job he did (I think he was pretty fantastic) but because there was nothing in him that convinced me he was 14 and we already knew from earlier canon that Sam was a larger kid who later grew into himself. (I'll also admit that I had major, major issues with Dean publicly proclaiming himself a "hero" because even in his teen years when I do think he believed it, I can't ever see him doing so. Privately to a girl walking away? Maybe. In a crowded school hallway? Yeah, not so much.)

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

In general though, I've never had an issue with the scales tipping to the Sam side of the fence and it was that way all the way until S4. S1 was Sam rediscovering his place as a Hunter, S2 was Sam struggling with his powers and the chance he could go darkside, and S3 was... Well, it was a mess, but still one more Sam focused than Dean, even with the Deal looming over both.

Does Sam ever care about what Dean sacrificed?

I don't think he even considers this in S3, to be honest. Not with how he's so willing to push aside the consequences of Dean's deal in favor of other hunts. He certainly doesn't ever consider what it meant in terms of anything but the Deal - Stanford, Dean's not leaving at 18 himself when we know from Skin that he wanted to, and speaking of Skin, how it was a direct result of Sam's desires in Skin that Dean lost his entire legal persona. Not Sam's fault, any of it, but just in being, bits and pieces of Dean keep getting snipped away, ground off and down and it's no wonder that with Sam rejecting him in his traditional role in S4, Dean's flailing and unable to find his purpose.

Is Sam actually trying to help Dean? I say no. not really.

I think Sam is trying to help Dean as best he knows how. The problem is that he keeps making it worse, not better. Sam thinks that he can make everything right again by shoving Dean into the role of being protected, that it's Sam's turn to be the bigger, stronger brother and watch out for Dean for a change. Which normally I'm all about - I would love for Sam to recognize Dean's importance and what Dean has done for him. However, Sam's methods of doing so are just... insulting.

When did Dean ever lie to Sam to protect him? Outside of what John made him do, anyway, and as soon as Sam learned the truth, Dean opened up completely. When did Dean ever consider Sam weak? Or say that Sam held him back? When did Dean ever not give Sam the respect he needed when Sam said he couldn't talk about something? Sam is treating Dean like a wounded, broken child and Dean, who has ever defined himself against other people's expectations, is living down to it. He's trying, bless him, but it's just getting to be too much, too hard, and no one is cutting him any slack. Not on the show, nor in the fandom, it feels.

am goes through the motions but this latest episode shows that no, Sam isn't trying to be that brother anymore.

This ep gave me some hope in terms of the brotherly bond for the first time in ages. I do agree that Sam has subconsciously replaced Dean with Ruby (and I would love to see some meta dealing with Dean's succubus being a trusting little brother as opposed to Sam's relationship with Ruby!) and he keeps writing Dean off as being too weak, too damaged to be effective, and both of those I can't stand. But even though impotent fury was the primary emotion that came out in his confrontation with Castiel in the hospital, I got a huge dose of concern there as well. It's not the same Sam as we've had in the past - it's a darker, grimmer, dirtier Sam - but it's one who does seem to honestly care about Dean and who is panicked over the thought of losing him again.

[surevesta.livejournal.com]

I want to say I completely forgot about the succubus in writing this. I'll also be replying to comments more in depth tonight (not ignoring you) as I have a long drive ahead of me to go home.

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

I would never think that. *g* People have busy lives, I just like to ramble a lot.

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

Personally, I see Sam as wanting to lower Dean in his own eyes, hence his treatment of his brother, but as one who would lose his shit if Dean ever left him. The way he reacted in 4x04 when Dean came in and started packing, that twice now Sam's thrown mini-temper tantrums when Dean either wouldn't check in with him (4x14, where he pitches his phone across the room) and his frustrated, furious "dammit!" when the angels took Dean in 4x16... All of it suggests that as he's becoming darker, he's also becoming more possessive and controlling. Dean doesn't seem to have the energy to leave Sam now (in more than one way), but if he did? Oh man, I predict massive Sammy meltdowns.

But at the same time that Sam's acting more possessive, he also can't be as trusting as he was when he was younger. Sam's lost Dean to death twice and I think a large part of all of this is that he can't stand to do it a third time. So he subconsciously tears at Dean's importance, tries to change him from an active partner to a sidekick, tries to assume the full lead, not ever recognizing that Dean needs to be in that position, that Dean has never been the protected one, has never not known what it's like to not struggle under the weight of the world.

Honestly, if you want someone who is perfectly equipped to deal with the pressure of being the only one who can stop the apocalypse, Dean's perfect for the job. He's already been struggling to live up to the impossible since he was four and each time he's given a terrible task, he rails against it, but somehow manages to get it done. It's only been when others have doubted him that Dean fails and Sam's efforts to make Dean into a weaker person who needs protecting (even if Dean does need protecting, now more than ever), are just killing him in small increments. If Sam could show some (any!) faith in Dean's abilities, I doubt we'd be seeing nearly so much of Dean falling apart.

And yeah, telling him to just "get over it" or "get angry" about it? Fuck you, Sam. I love you, Sam, but fuck you.